Haiti

[Kasu]

That's an outright lie that there are no statistics or facts in any one of the articles. A lie.

knort wrote:

Anyone saying the US is the reason why Haiti is impoverished knows nothing about Haiti. The US invaded Haiti in the early 1900s and installed their own puppet government but Haiti was run to the ground by their own elected official. If anything the US was responsible for 'the decline' of Haiti by not being involved with it. If you want more evidence look at the Dominican Republic.

I highly suggest that you read this article: http://wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/pers-j15.shtml

At least fully read this quote.

Quote:

The roots of this relationship go back to the birth of Haiti as the first independent black republic in 1804, the product of a successful slave revolution led by Toussaint Louverture, and the subsequent defeat of a French army sent by Napoleon. The ruling classes of the world never forgave Haiti for its revolutionary victory. It was subjected to a worldwide embargo that was led by the United States, which feared the Haitian example could inspire a similar revolt in the southern slave states. It was only with southern secession and the outbreak of the Civil War that the North recognized Haiti—nearly 60 years after its independence. From the dawn of the 20th century, Haiti fell under the domination of Washington and the US banks, whose interests were defended by sending Marines to carry out an occupation that continued for nearly 20 years, maintained through the bloody suppression of Haitian resistance. The Marines left only after carrying out the “Haitianization”—as the New York Times referred to it at the time—of the war against the Haitian people by building an army dedicated to internal repression. Subsequently, Washington backed the 30-year dictatorship of the Duvaliers, which began with the coming to power of Papa Doc in 1957. While tens of thousands of Haitians died at the hands of the military and the dreaded Tontons Macoute, US imperialism saw the murderous dictatorship as a bulwark against communism and revolution in the Caribbean. Since the mass upheavals that brought down the Duvaliers in 1986, successive US governments, Democratic and Republican alike, have sought to reconstruct a reliable client state capable of defending the markets and investments of US firms attracted by starvation wages, as well as the property and wealth of the Haitian ruling elite. This entails preventing any challenge to a socio-economic order that keeps 80 percent of the population in dire poverty. This effort continues today under the tutelage of Bill and Hillary Clinton—respectively the UN’s special representative to Haiti and the US Secretary of State—who together have Haitian blood on their hands. Washington has backed two coups and sent US troops back into Haiti twice in the past 20 years. Both coups were organized to overthrow Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the first Haitian president to be elected by popular vote and without Washington’s approval. Together, the coups of 1991 and 2004 claimed the lives of at least 13,000 more Haitians. In the 2004 overthrow, Aristide was forcibly transported out of the country by US operatives.

[blue42]

commie

[Math]

there usually aren't kasu. its just that i've never heard you disagree with anything the wsws have said, it's like that website has become your Bible. don't practice fundamentalism kasu... it can lead you to unrealistic, and usually outright wrong conclusions, just like how christians believe they have the afterlife all figured out when they really know nothing about it. don't be that person kasu.

[Kasu]

That goes hand in hand with this:

"The decisions arrived at democratically within the party are binding on all members. Those who object to this essential element of centralism in the implementation of decisions, who see in the demand for discipline a violation of their personal freedom, are not revolutionary socialists but anarchistic individualists, who do not understand the implications and demands of the class struggle."

*becomes mindless*

Just kidding. Being a Marxist requires the highest level of consciousness.

[Math]

we need classes kasu. if there are no classes, then how will people know if they are supposed to be happy? you need someone to look down on kasu, everyone needs to look down on somebody. that's why homeless people are sad, not because they are looked down on, but they have no one to look down on. i saw some video where a homeless guy smiled into the camera and said he loved his life, and then some guy threw a brick into his face. he deserved it, he isn't playing his role. he isn't supposed to be happy, that's the job of the people that look down on him. we need classes josh, know your role...

[Kasu]

-___-


loool

[Linden]

Kasu wrote:

Right. Why do you think they have electronic devices but hardly any food, decent housing, or anything? Why do you think they have so many kids? Didn't you pay attention in biology when they said organisms that have fewer chance of surviving tend to have higher quantities of offspring? Why do you think the conditions are so bad in the first place? Again, it's not a mystery, simply study the history of Haiti and its relation with the US. The socialists aren't making it up.

Abortion is illegal and they don't use condoms which is why 10% of the urban population has HIV(lots of prostitutes too). Haiti mostly imports there food which adds to there dept and makes them poorer. So More kids = more food to buy = making them poor. This holds true has the higher class women do have less kids.

[Kasu]

You're out of your league.

[Linden]

fine lol

communist

[Branncock]

100,000 dead
$37 of damage

[Math]

LOL

[Scott Productions]

I'm locking this topic because Kasu's opinion doesn't even deserve to be read anymore. Constant derailment.

[Matt Calvert]

I'm sorry, someone expressing their opinion does not mean a topic should be locked. It is your decision whether to listen to them or stop listening to them. Besides, a little debate never hurt anyone.

It is now unlocked. Please continue.

[Scott Productions]

Can you at least install a script that moves any topic Kasu posts in to the debate forum since that's what it will eventually end up as?

EDIT: Or ban.

[CapnJack]

you can thank me later =]

[Matt Calvert]

Scott Productions wrote:

Can you at least install a script that moves any topic Kasu posts in to the debate forum since that's what it will eventually end up as? EDIT: Or ban.

No, but mods can split or move threads as they see fit. Since this one ended up as a straight up debate, I'll move it there now.

[Captain Knots]

Michael J. Fox was in Haiti at the time, and replied to the occurence, "I didn't feel any Earthquake."

[deathfun]

Know what we should do?
Nuke 'em

Link

[blue42]

when in doubt

[Flip]

Kasu has a point. Haiti never really had a chance to build up and prosper. After the slave revolution they had no educated people to lead them. It's not like they could expect any help from France, or any other colonial power for that matter. France was of course trying to push the US into stopping all trade with Haiti.

Highly incompetent leadership and no ability to trade or educate the people. Not really a good starting point for a nation.

[Bluestick]

Flip wrote:

Kasu has a point. Haiti never really had a chance to build up and prosper. After the slave revolution they had no educated people to lead them. It's not like they could expect any help from France, or any other colonial power for that matter. France was of course trying to push the US into stopping all trade with Haiti. Highly incompetent leadership and no ability to trade or educate the people. Not really a good starting point for a nation.

And that has what to do with the USA? That's like telling someone, "You're stupid, American, fat and blind, but it's China's fault..."

[Flip]

Sorry, not clear enough, The French succeeded. USA stopped trading with all parts of the island that were not controlled by France.

[Bluestick]

Flip wrote:

Sorry, not clear enough, The French succeeded. USA stopped trading with all parts of the island that were not controlled by France.

Ah, I see. Mind sending me an article I can read?

[Flip]

Heh, have to admit i read it in a wikipedia article and a column in the biggest newspaper in
Sweden. But I found you a book that says the same thing

http://books.google.se/books?id=ao-DMzBDt3kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=tim+matthewson+haiti&source=bl&ots=Dx2KWXkg87&sig=GEDVF_dATrVoLsNAN8NfXEid3c4&hl=sv&ei=DIBbS-z4HIHp-Qa4-vUB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tim%20matthewson%20haiti&f=false

If you're not bored out of your mind and willing to read it all: Chapter 7, first sentence

[Kasu]

The section of the article The history that "binds" the US and Haiti goes over the entire history of Haiti from the slave revolution all the way up today.

Quote:

The roots of this relationship go back to the birth of Haiti as the first independent black republic in 1804, the product of a successful slave revolution led by Toussaint Louverture, and the subsequent defeat of a French army sent by Napoleon. The ruling classes of the world never forgave Haiti for its revolutionary victory. It was subjected to a worldwide embargo that was led by the United States, which feared the Haitian example could inspire a similar revolt in the southern slave states. It was only with southern secession and the outbreak of the Civil War that the North recognized Haiti—nearly 60 years after its independence. From the dawn of the 20th century, Haiti fell under the domination of Washington and the US banks, whose interests were defended by sending Marines to carry out an occupation that continued for nearly 20 years, maintained through the bloody suppression of Haitian resistance. The Marines left only after carrying out the “Haitianization”—as the New York Times referred to it at the time—of the war against the Haitian people by building an army dedicated to internal repression. Subsequently, Washington backed the 30-year dictatorship of the Duvaliers, which began with the coming to power of Papa Doc in 1957. While tens of thousands of Haitians died at the hands of the military and the dreaded Tontons Macoute, US imperialism saw the murderous dictatorship as a bulwark against communism and revolution in the Caribbean. Since the mass upheavals that brought down the Duvaliers in 1986, successive US governments, Democratic and Republican alike, have sought to reconstruct a reliable client state capable of defending the markets and investments of US firms attracted by starvation wages, as well as the property and wealth of the Haitian ruling elite. This entails preventing any challenge to a socio-economic order that keeps 80 percent of the population in dire poverty. This effort continues today under the tutelage of Bill and Hillary Clinton—respectively the UN’s special representative to Haiti and the US Secretary of State—who together have Haitian blood on their hands. Washington has backed two coups and sent US troops back into Haiti twice in the past 20 years. Both coups were organized to overthrow Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the first Haitian president to be elected by popular vote and without Washington’s approval. Together, the coups of 1991 and 2004 claimed the lives of at least 13,000 more Haitians. In the 2004 overthrow, Aristide was forcibly transported out of the country by US operatives.

"This is the real and continuing history that, as Obama put it, binds Haiti to US imperialism, which bears overwhelming responsibility for the desperate conditions that have compounded the carnage inflicted by the earthquake.

There are, however, other ties that bind and are deeply felt, as the immensity of the tragedy in Haiti unfolds. There are over half a million Haitian Americans officially counted in the US and undoubtedly hundreds of thousands more who are undocumented. Their presence concretizes the class interests and solidarity that unite Haitian and American workers. Together, it is their task to sweep away the conditions of poverty and devastation in both countries, along with the capitalist profit system that has created them."